I think it's gendered, too; fashion is often dismissed because it's a historically "female" interest, and therefore silly, frivolous, less worthy. That said, I think because fashion is often *unfairly* maligned, people who are interested in it can be too quick to dismiss valid criticisms of the industry (throwing the baby out with the bathwater). I think we've been conditioned to be somewhat defensive of fashion as a legitimate interest, and in turn sometimes give the industry a free pass when it shouldn't get one, like in its pushing of rampant consumerism, labor practices, etc.
This is a fantastic point Quinn. It is such a balance. Yes fashion is great, yes the fashion industry also has legitimate, concerning problems. Although it can be hard to untangle and discuss, I think it is so important that we do.
Totally feel this way, and also have impostor syndrome sometimes (i.e. if I write about home stuff, will people come over and be like omg–her house isn't even that great!). But I was just having this conversation with a wine journalist/somm the other day in the context of wine starting to lose an audience—it's often people who are not necessarily professionals/experts sharing their thoughts in an approachable way that bring new consumers, hobbyists, or fans into the fold. We need that!
perfectly said and love how you applied this to other niches like home and wine. we totally need more people who are inviting fans into the fold rather than acting like their fans are beneath them. Love your voice as well, thanks for being here in my corner! <3
this is soooo true about wine and other things that we see as unapproachable; high art and fashion need regular people to survive, people to sit in the cheap seats if you will because one day those people will buy orchestra seats if they get really into it yknow?
Elle, I love this. And might I add- fashion is an industry worth billions, where most CEOs are male but most consumers are women…. I think it’s really important to note that if fashion were like football for example and had mostly male consumers, I don’t think it would be as much of an embarrassment to be super into it? I often say the same thing about influencer culture. An easier target because most influencers are female.
Thank you Liz! <3 really reallyyyy good add. Makes me want to be more discerning of when a critique is genuine vs when it is just directed at an easy target, like influencers are you brought up. Food for thought.
The money side of things is such a good point. I live in France, where fashion is the country’s second biggest industry behind agriculture, and funnily enough people don’t see it as an unserious pursuit there like they do in the UK, in my experience…
I really love this. When I was doing my PhD, I *really* wanted to study the sociology of fashion. But that version of me was very easily swayed by other people’s opinions, so when another student (a woman) said “Why would you study fashion when there are so many bigger, more important things to study,” I switched my focus. I still regret it! Because fashion isn’t just frivolous and dumb, it’s a central component of how people and societies express themselves, how they function, what they signal, and why that matters. Fashion is fascinating. I love it!!!! Thanks for writing this.
Wait, you are a soc PhD too?! 🙃 I started my dissertation on second hand fashion, and moved to mommy blogs. A topic all my profs thought was as ridiculous as fashion!
MY SISTER IN SUFFERING! For one class I did an ethnography on a women-only gym in an upscale (and conservative) Orange County enclave and everyone thought it was the dumbest idea. People openly sneered at it in class! But it was weirdly fascinating!! Screw the haters!!
All great points, Elle — yes, I worked in fashion and as a minimalist am uber conscientious about consumerism, but my adoration for it does not wane. I think it’s a fine line; appreciation should absolutely be democratic, and these are rich conversations. I grow weary when I see the overzealous people with more money and links and honestly no true taste or genuine appreciation for fashion other than shilling clothes. Clothes are so tied to our past, our identity, our culture and it’s just deeper than “Amazon finds” — and always will be for me.
As always you bring a lot of value to the conversation Christine, thank you! I completely agree, clothing is so intimate and personal. The special-ness is wholly lost if we are all wearing the same Amazon dupes. I am thankful that I feel like we are turning a corner from that. Even if the conversation gets repetitive, I don't want to stop talking about slowing our consumption, truly appreciating what we have, and being mindful with our dollars.
I loved this Elle. As someone whose career is in fashion, it has simply always been a big part of my life and so talking about it felt like talking about any job. But once I left NYC - I was like a polar bear in the jungle. My 20+ year long fashion career started to feel tempered by the realities of living in the burbs (and raising a family and all that) That’s why I love Substack. It has quite literally provided me a space (outside of work which well, is work!) to express my love of fashion again!
I so appreciate this take, especially you pointing out that participating in fashion can be fun! I’ve always been shy to talk/write about how much I love clothes because I’m not someone who works in fashion. But it’s what I enjoy the most! And every time I overthink it, I just try to remember that it’s all supposed to be fun.
In real life, I find many are judgemental about shopping and spending money on clothes. But these very people have absolutely zero problem with spending money on travelling, this is the "correct" way to spend money. Fashion is a vapid pursuit.
Loved this! I also think it semi-relates to this topic: people who do care about fashion aren't always judging what other people are wearing. I've been in convos with friends where one person is "into fashion" and another isn't, and they're self-conscious about what the fashion friend will think of their outfit. So much judgment projection in all of the above...curious if that resonates at all?!
I get this sometimes from friends and 1) having style does not negate another’s ability to 2) I feel weird about my style or get insecure because I’m constantly trying something new!! And that’s usually when I get complimented by my besties the most🥲
Great points, Elle! I guess this is why I always say I'm into "style" because I always felt "fashion" meant I care to wear designer brands or know the last trends on the runway. That's just not me. I love shopping second hand, styling my outfits, and wearing what makes me feel confident!
Good Morning from Santa Cruz , CA. (a 50+ year old gal..)
Agree completely, I do feel guilty about my interest at times. I love to hear about new creative directors and read about the fancy folks too even as a middle aged hippie in my old clogs. My husband said "that looks like the Row" the other day when I took out a suede tote for our trip and I nearly fell over. He politely listens about my conquests in the closet, who knew he really did. And it's not the Row, it's TJMaxx but a really good Italian tote. (keep an eye on the Runway tab at TJMaxx) Have a great day friends.
I really appreciate how honest you are with yourself and others. I think we need more people like you Elle, especially in the fashion world.
I personally work in fashion and sometimes it feels just like you described it "‘if you know you know, and if don’t, you wouldn’t get it anyway.’ And it can feel so lonely and sad.
I think the panorama is slowly changing thanks to platforms like Substack, and writers like you. It doesn't have to be elitist, and there's no fashion editor or designer or fashion-god-knows-what that can know it all. BECAUSE NONE CAN!!!
Thank you as usual for your fresh and honest perspective, I adore everything your write!
Oh you are SUCH an encouragement to me, thank you Giulia!!! <3 and I love how you said that, no one can know it all!!! so people should stop acting like they do hahahah
I loved this Elle and waited with bated breath for this post. I have often felt that liking fashion is (a) not a worthy pursuit but a vain one and (b) like I don’t have the prerequisites to participate but Substack is also my safe-space. I’m grateful we have found a soft and welcoming place to land without judgement!
hahaha I must tell you I regretted posting that note about my next post being feisty because I am the worlds biggest overthinker !!! but I'm so glad this resonated. I hope we can reframe our thinking on fashion being a vain pursuit, or that we need all of the pre-recs to participate. It is FUN and as worthy a pursuit as any I am learning. (maybe not *any* but you get me?) <3
I think someone posted about how this is such a Gemini quality and- as a fellow Gemini- I can’t even tell you how I debate my pieces. Should I post? Who will even care? Is it good enough? Should I just delete my Substack now? 😂😂
Unfortunately there's still a longstanding mainstream bias that caring about fashion/style/getting dressed in interesting ways is superficial and silly (just see all those curmudgeonly comments on NYT Fashion stories, ugh). I hope this open-minded, curious community feeling that we can all join in on the fashion conversation continues to flourish here on Substack!
I think it's gendered, too; fashion is often dismissed because it's a historically "female" interest, and therefore silly, frivolous, less worthy. That said, I think because fashion is often *unfairly* maligned, people who are interested in it can be too quick to dismiss valid criticisms of the industry (throwing the baby out with the bathwater). I think we've been conditioned to be somewhat defensive of fashion as a legitimate interest, and in turn sometimes give the industry a free pass when it shouldn't get one, like in its pushing of rampant consumerism, labor practices, etc.
This is a fantastic point Quinn. It is such a balance. Yes fashion is great, yes the fashion industry also has legitimate, concerning problems. Although it can be hard to untangle and discuss, I think it is so important that we do.
Oh THIS is so true - very gendered.
Totally feel this way, and also have impostor syndrome sometimes (i.e. if I write about home stuff, will people come over and be like omg–her house isn't even that great!). But I was just having this conversation with a wine journalist/somm the other day in the context of wine starting to lose an audience—it's often people who are not necessarily professionals/experts sharing their thoughts in an approachable way that bring new consumers, hobbyists, or fans into the fold. We need that!
Love and appreciate your voice and commentary 🫶
perfectly said and love how you applied this to other niches like home and wine. we totally need more people who are inviting fans into the fold rather than acting like their fans are beneath them. Love your voice as well, thanks for being here in my corner! <3
this is soooo true about wine and other things that we see as unapproachable; high art and fashion need regular people to survive, people to sit in the cheap seats if you will because one day those people will buy orchestra seats if they get really into it yknow?
100% and already a problem in SF where the symphony has been in a 10-year budget deficit because it's not getting the monetary support it needs to survive (I learned this from Rebecca: https://thinkingaboutgettinginto.substack.com/p/panic-at-the-symphony)
https://www.sfchronicle.com/entertainment/classical/article/san-francisco-symphony-salonen-19374384.php
Thank you so much for this — I didn’t know I felt it until you said it! These fears.
Elle, I love this. And might I add- fashion is an industry worth billions, where most CEOs are male but most consumers are women…. I think it’s really important to note that if fashion were like football for example and had mostly male consumers, I don’t think it would be as much of an embarrassment to be super into it? I often say the same thing about influencer culture. An easier target because most influencers are female.
Thank you Liz! <3 really reallyyyy good add. Makes me want to be more discerning of when a critique is genuine vs when it is just directed at an easy target, like influencers are you brought up. Food for thought.
The money side of things is such a good point. I live in France, where fashion is the country’s second biggest industry behind agriculture, and funnily enough people don’t see it as an unserious pursuit there like they do in the UK, in my experience…
This this this!!!!
FUCK YES
I really love this. When I was doing my PhD, I *really* wanted to study the sociology of fashion. But that version of me was very easily swayed by other people’s opinions, so when another student (a woman) said “Why would you study fashion when there are so many bigger, more important things to study,” I switched my focus. I still regret it! Because fashion isn’t just frivolous and dumb, it’s a central component of how people and societies express themselves, how they function, what they signal, and why that matters. Fashion is fascinating. I love it!!!! Thanks for writing this.
Wait, you are a soc PhD too?! 🙃 I started my dissertation on second hand fashion, and moved to mommy blogs. A topic all my profs thought was as ridiculous as fashion!
MY SISTER IN SUFFERING! For one class I did an ethnography on a women-only gym in an upscale (and conservative) Orange County enclave and everyone thought it was the dumbest idea. People openly sneered at it in class! But it was weirdly fascinating!! Screw the haters!!
That is exactly the ethnography I want to read, btw!
Amazing! I would have been SO into it. Honestly so of the worst sexism I’ve ever encountered came from sociologists. Many of them women!
SAME. Ugh the stories we could share. Sometimes I think I need a support group still, even though I finished my doctorate in 2011!
Yeah same, 2014 for me and maybe finally breaking free. Substack is helping!
All great points, Elle — yes, I worked in fashion and as a minimalist am uber conscientious about consumerism, but my adoration for it does not wane. I think it’s a fine line; appreciation should absolutely be democratic, and these are rich conversations. I grow weary when I see the overzealous people with more money and links and honestly no true taste or genuine appreciation for fashion other than shilling clothes. Clothes are so tied to our past, our identity, our culture and it’s just deeper than “Amazon finds” — and always will be for me.
As always you bring a lot of value to the conversation Christine, thank you! I completely agree, clothing is so intimate and personal. The special-ness is wholly lost if we are all wearing the same Amazon dupes. I am thankful that I feel like we are turning a corner from that. Even if the conversation gets repetitive, I don't want to stop talking about slowing our consumption, truly appreciating what we have, and being mindful with our dollars.
I loved this Elle. As someone whose career is in fashion, it has simply always been a big part of my life and so talking about it felt like talking about any job. But once I left NYC - I was like a polar bear in the jungle. My 20+ year long fashion career started to feel tempered by the realities of living in the burbs (and raising a family and all that) That’s why I love Substack. It has quite literally provided me a space (outside of work which well, is work!) to express my love of fashion again!
I so appreciate this take, especially you pointing out that participating in fashion can be fun! I’ve always been shy to talk/write about how much I love clothes because I’m not someone who works in fashion. But it’s what I enjoy the most! And every time I overthink it, I just try to remember that it’s all supposed to be fun.
In real life, I find many are judgemental about shopping and spending money on clothes. But these very people have absolutely zero problem with spending money on travelling, this is the "correct" way to spend money. Fashion is a vapid pursuit.
This is SO great! I love your point abt the connection to materialism and our cultural distrust of it.
Loved this! I also think it semi-relates to this topic: people who do care about fashion aren't always judging what other people are wearing. I've been in convos with friends where one person is "into fashion" and another isn't, and they're self-conscious about what the fashion friend will think of their outfit. So much judgment projection in all of the above...curious if that resonates at all?!
I get this sometimes from friends and 1) having style does not negate another’s ability to 2) I feel weird about my style or get insecure because I’m constantly trying something new!! And that’s usually when I get complimented by my besties the most🥲
this was life giving to read! i feel energized and validated by this great piece. thank you for being so curious and sincere <3
Glad we are in the same corner of the internet- thank YOU!
Great points, Elle! I guess this is why I always say I'm into "style" because I always felt "fashion" meant I care to wear designer brands or know the last trends on the runway. That's just not me. I love shopping second hand, styling my outfits, and wearing what makes me feel confident!
Thank you Rojeen <3 second hand shopping, styling, and feeling confident is certainly a worthy pursuit and passion! well said!
Good Morning from Santa Cruz , CA. (a 50+ year old gal..)
Agree completely, I do feel guilty about my interest at times. I love to hear about new creative directors and read about the fancy folks too even as a middle aged hippie in my old clogs. My husband said "that looks like the Row" the other day when I took out a suede tote for our trip and I nearly fell over. He politely listens about my conquests in the closet, who knew he really did. And it's not the Row, it's TJMaxx but a really good Italian tote. (keep an eye on the Runway tab at TJMaxx) Have a great day friends.
Oh you should see the smile on my face! What a cute story. And making a note to self to pop into a TJMaxx sometime soon. <3
I really appreciate how honest you are with yourself and others. I think we need more people like you Elle, especially in the fashion world.
I personally work in fashion and sometimes it feels just like you described it "‘if you know you know, and if don’t, you wouldn’t get it anyway.’ And it can feel so lonely and sad.
I think the panorama is slowly changing thanks to platforms like Substack, and writers like you. It doesn't have to be elitist, and there's no fashion editor or designer or fashion-god-knows-what that can know it all. BECAUSE NONE CAN!!!
Thank you as usual for your fresh and honest perspective, I adore everything your write!
Oh you are SUCH an encouragement to me, thank you Giulia!!! <3 and I love how you said that, no one can know it all!!! so people should stop acting like they do hahahah
I loved this Elle and waited with bated breath for this post. I have often felt that liking fashion is (a) not a worthy pursuit but a vain one and (b) like I don’t have the prerequisites to participate but Substack is also my safe-space. I’m grateful we have found a soft and welcoming place to land without judgement!
hahaha I must tell you I regretted posting that note about my next post being feisty because I am the worlds biggest overthinker !!! but I'm so glad this resonated. I hope we can reframe our thinking on fashion being a vain pursuit, or that we need all of the pre-recs to participate. It is FUN and as worthy a pursuit as any I am learning. (maybe not *any* but you get me?) <3
I think someone posted about how this is such a Gemini quality and- as a fellow Gemini- I can’t even tell you how I debate my pieces. Should I post? Who will even care? Is it good enough? Should I just delete my Substack now? 😂😂
This is such a validating conversation lol. I want to write at the end of all my posts, just unsubscribe to me and follow so and so instead.
Unfortunately there's still a longstanding mainstream bias that caring about fashion/style/getting dressed in interesting ways is superficial and silly (just see all those curmudgeonly comments on NYT Fashion stories, ugh). I hope this open-minded, curious community feeling that we can all join in on the fashion conversation continues to flourish here on Substack!